Post by AbuYousef, High horse rustler on Oct 5, 2016 10:11:15 GMT -6
This was an excellent episode. I have noticed the "rogue cop" thing myself many years ago, and have since hated the idea.
Now it's worse: Today's (American) cinema and TV shows glorify torture as a means of getting information. It is completely ridiculous, and a dangerous message. The "rogue cop saves society by breaking the rules" schtick has been replaced with "The government must use torture to protect us from terrorists" plots that go unopposed.
In reality, dictatorships know that the only use torture has is producing false testimonies. If you need someone to admit to treason or some other damning crime, you torture them until they confess on video that they are guilty, even if it isn't true. You can NOT torture someone until they reveal information about their actual secret networks. Do you seriously believe that torturing the same guy for 4-5 years is going to make him expose some terror plot that is supposed to happen in the future? That is pure movie fantasy garbage, but because it is in the movies and it sounds so much like what politicians are telling us we just might end up believing it.
The sci-fi urban hell motif is no longer part of how we percieve the direction society is heading, so we don't need rogue cop fantasies. We now live in a time where we think islamist terrorism is ever rising, and so we accept fantasies about special forces and secret agents torturing terrorists to get information that can save American lives (even though perhaps 99% of all islamist terrorism targets arab populations). Then you have guys like Trump taking that fantasy and expanding it into torturing the wives and children of said hypothetical terrorists as if that is going to increase the efficiency and accuracy of the information. It is perverse.
The best ships are actual ships. <3 The Violet One
We now live in a time where we think islamist terrorism is ever rising, and so we accept fantasies about special forces and secret agents torturing terrorists to get information that can save American lives (even though perhaps 99% of all islamist terrorism targets arab populations).
The scarier fact is that not only torture "works" (and it's probably true that, in the long run, anyone WILL give up information if you torture them enough) it's that our heroes (in most cases) always torture the RIGHT people. The idea that our hero can always "just tell" that somebody is guilty is in many ways more dangerous - if Jack Bauer/Jethro Gibbs/Dirty Harry always get the "right man" from pure instinct it feeds into the idea that if the cops were just allowed to "waste a few punks" then we'd all be safer. Because obviously, the government (or the cops) are incapable of being corrupt!
Also - loonies like Trump!? Leon, you seem to be giving a slight hint which way you might vote in November!
Post by AbuYousef, High horse rustler on Oct 5, 2016 14:47:51 GMT -6
You have to ask yourself what any one terrorist can actually know. If you arrest a would-be suicide bomber, you think he will know much more than who talked him into it, what the bomb maker looks like and what his instructions were? Useful information, certainly, but he isn't going to know all the details you need to stop another bombing or shooting that he isn't a part of. Terrorists have all the time in the world, if any part of the plan falls apart they can just abandon it and think of something new. If a member is arrested or switches sides, just abandon the mission and hope that you can stay hidden. Terrorist attacks succeed when they manage to maintain operational security until the last moment and no one outside the group has any idea what is about to happen.
When the CIA or NSA say they have obtained information that can save lives, they don't mean they literally forced a detainee to tell them when the "next" attack is going to happen and how to stop it. What they really mean is that he may have given up a few names (aliases) of conspirators, which (if true) means those people can potentially be identified and found, and IF those people happen to be planning to kill Americans in some yet unknown plot you could say this information COULD save lives. Lots of hypotheticals. What's the point in telling the truth if you're a die hard Al-Qaida or ISIS fanboy though? Intel work takes years, if you feed them false information to make them stop torturing you, it will take them a long time to figure out you're lying. The deal is you give information, they stop torturing you for the time being. Torture is no longer a bargaining tool if you're going to continue torture after the detainee gives up some sort of information, the torture has to stop it until the information proves to be a lie. If you are going to be tortured indefinitely no matter if you tell the truth or not, why not lie and at least stay loyal to what you believe in?
It has been said many times, even by dictatorships that have used torture for decades, that it can not force secrets out of people. If you can make it stop by saying anything, or if the torture continues even if you say something, there is no point in telling the truth and aiding your captors who are looking for your people. Ex-KGB people say it. Ex-Saddam people say it. Even dissenting voices in the CIA say torture doesn't work as announced. It only works when you need to force someone to accept your truth, ie make them confess to being spies, rebels and terrorists no matter if is true or not. Confess or be tortured forever, you have no other options. There is no information you can give up, there is only the exact confession your torturer prepared for you. One choice.
In the real world, actual life saving intelligence about islamist terrorism comes from: - Family and friends who are suspicious of changes in behaviour, travels, political opinions etc, ie people notice the signs of radicalisation and report it to the police - Would-be terrorists are often involved with other crimes that may indirectly lead to the police finding out that they have become radicalised - Suspicious retailers reporting strange sales to the police
Basically, preventive policing is the only realistic way of stopping terrorism. Stop the radical before they get involved with a terrorist plot. Once a plot is under way by a secretive group it is probably too late to actively and deliberately stop them.
The best ships are actual ships. <3 The Violet One
To be honest, I really miss these kind of films and am sad, that they aren't made anymore. Not the lone wolf cop thing, with all its implications, but this whole genre of science fiction. A simple and clear story, practical effects, straight forward characters and a little hyper violence can't hurt either. It's more like an action film with a sci-fi theme, than a high concept sci-fi. I don't know; normally I like world building and a rich background - which the predator has in other media, like comics. But I always liked these movies because normal 80's action films get kind of boring, when chuck Norris kills the same faceless henchmen a dozen times over. The adversary makes this into an interesting and unique movies - for me at least.
When Leon talks about "one of the last urban hellscape" movies I thought of Strange Days being the last one. At least I can think of. It shares some of the themes like crime or police with military gear. And the best character in the story is Lornette 'Mace' Mason!
But somehow the movie is kind of forgotten. Maybe because of the brain recording thingy. ;-)
Or because it has another point of view, that of a loser, not a lose cannon.
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XenoChrist: Jade's butt is a crime
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johnpaul: It's so fine, It's a crime?
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someloser0: thank you all so much
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EsADeo: I don't know whether to post this in the forums for Season 2, 3 or 4, but technically I think Joan got what she wanted. An incredibly long time after she died, but still.
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scarletr: Ever since Trump won, I noped myself out of reality.
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